On Conversion, Marriage and Status of Children

Hello,
My name is Deborah, I am Jewish, however my partner who I have been going
out with for 8 years is not. The option of him converting has been discussed
over the last few years. I think his conversion needs to be done through a
liberal/progressive movement though, as we have looked into and spoken to a
orthadox rabbi and it's honestly just too hard.

My question is, if my partner converts through a liberal/progressive shul (synagogue) I
am aware we would ultimately end up getting married by a liberal/progressive
rabbi. Therefore, is our marriage considered Jewish? And when we ultimately
have children and we gave them bar/bat-mitzvahs do they take on the
liberal/progressive identity or would they still be considered orthadox
because of me no matter where they were given bar/bat-mitzvahs and no matter
where we got married?

Please let me know.
Many thanks.
Deborah

-------------------------------------------

Rabbi Jonathan responds:

Many thanks for your message and honesty, Deborah.

The bottom line is what you want conversion for?

If your partner is not interested in converting to Judaism, we can't convert him.  If he (and you) wish to be orthodox, we're not the right address for you.

If you both want to have a meaningful Jewish life that believes in welcoming sincere converts without making it too difficult, then we may be the right place.

However you have given no information as to where you are located.  To convert you have to be able to be part of a Jewish community.

Conversion takes a minimum of a year - realistically it usually takes more like two - and includes circumcision (for males) and mikveh (ritual immersion), which concludes the process.

I would point out, though, that we run an Introduction to Judaism course (which can be done on-line), which is the 'academic' side of the Conversion course.  Your partner (or you both) would be welcome to undertake this, and would both then know and understand more about Judaism and our perspectives, and would be better equipped to understand Judaism, discuss with family, raise children in a Jewish home, and know whether or not he wished to continue to conversion at some point.  You'll find details here:

http://pjv.org.au/education/introduction-judaism-online

Regarding your wedding questions:

The Progressive Movement in Australia, New Zealand and Asia only does marriage between two Jews.

If your partner converted with us, he would sadly not be accepted as Jewish in the eyes of most orthodox, and therefore you would not be able to get married in an orthodox synagogue.

However, since the orthodox observe the matrilineal rule, if the mother is accepted as Jewish by the orthodox, then so are the children.  Therefore, from the narrow point of view of the Jewish status of the children, it makes no difference whether your partner does not convert, or converts through the Progressive movement, or converts through the orthodox system.

Wanting a 'Chuppah' (a Jewish wedding under the canopy) is certainly not a good enough reason to convert and take on an entire framework and world view of belief and practice.  However, if a couple are both born Jewish, or if one converts through our Bet Din (Jewish court), then of course we'd be delighted to conduct a Chuppah.  A past orthodox Chief Rabbi of Great Britain and the Commonwealth, Rabbi Jakobovitz, ruled that if a couple could have been married by the orthodox, then the children are counted as Jews, whether they are married in a Progressive or orthodox ceremony.   

Therefore, they could if you chose celebrate Bar and Bat Mitzvah in orthodox synagogues (though your husband would not be able to be involved, whereas in a Progressive congregation they could).

I hope this is helpful.

Please don't hesitate to contact me with any further questions, or to make an appointment to come together to chat about it all, without obligation of course!  And if you might be interested, why not come along to a service or two to see if you feel comfortable with our lovely, friendly community in East Kew?

Shabbat Shalom

Rabbi Jonathan 

It doesn't sound as if a Progressive path is the right one for you at present!

Hello

I have just found the information about the online course from the google search. I was wondering if this is the course that allows the conversion for non jews,  and whether i can be allowed to convert after taking your course.

Debora

Hi Debora,

Our Introduction to Judaism course​ gives the 'academic' knowledge required for conversion through the Bet Din of the Union for Progressive Judaism, Australia, New Zealand and Asia.  Our conversion is accepted by Israel for immigration, but not recognised by the interior ministry for marriage etc.  As you probably know, they only accept some (and not all) orthodox conversions!  This means you will need to be civilly married outside Israel - this is then recognised as a legal marriage!

In addition to the academic course, you will need to develop a relationship with a congregation in Israel, and a 'Sponsoring' Rabbi, will need to be able to read hebrew, and, if you were male, you'd need brit.  

I am not sure if there is any advantage to you in undertaking our on-line course compared to enrolling in an Israeli Progressive congregation's conversion group.  You have not said where in Israel you are living, whether you have an Israeli partner, and if so, whether they are involved in a Progressive congregation or willing to be?  It would also be useful to know a bit more about your background, work and motivation to explore conversion, and if you are planning to remain permanently in Israel or, if not, what your timescales are.

L'shalom

Rabbi Jonathan

Thank you Rabbi,

I would like to undertake a course of conversion to Judaism. I have always been drawn to it and I am half Jewish. I am currently residing in Israel to fully experience a Jewish life.

 I lived in a secular environment, and never undertook any religious education. I remember having some Jewish friends in childhood and spending time in their homes. As well as I saw my grandmother from my father's side lighting Shabbat candles.

I recently lived in remote areas of the world, and only about 5 years ago I was able to visit synagogue and make contact with Jewish communities.

Somehow I started to become very interested in Judaism. Most importantly I had not fully been able to join a synagogue, as I had no documents that I am a Jew, as they requested my parents ketubah and so on.

The Jewish communities I have experienced are very hesitant to accept any strangers.  There are also many reasons of why I could not join, being distance from the synagogue as I was living too far away, and financial reasons. For various reasons very slowly I started to feel a Jewish identity, I started with attending festivals only and reading online.  

 I was interested in a conversion program, but the ones available were reform in my nearest city, and some other reform ones on line. For this reason I decided to come to Israel and live a full Jewish life that was unavailable to me at home.

Now free from any obligations I had to fulfill all my life, I want to spend remaining years studying Judaism and becoming a fully observant Jew.

I am now living in Bnei Brak where I can fully observe life as a Jew. I have Jewish friends, and though I am very limited by language, as I don’t speak Hebrew, I also attend English lectures at Chabad Institute Or Chaya in Jerusalem. I visit the orthodox shule, but they had no religious education for beginners. I have attended Shabbat dinners at my friends’ homes. I follow the laws of kashrut and Shabbat.  

Recently I was thinking why had I spent 30 years of not following Judaism and also of why Jews were sent to exile to different parts of the world.  We were told in the lectures of Or Chaya this was so they could spread Judaism to different parts of the world and gain converts. I believe it was a miracle that happened from God that I was able to come to Israel and so far see things I was only able to dream about. I feel now more than ever I am ready to become a full Jew and undertake a course in Judaism.  

I responded:

Hi again Debora,

Thanks for your response to me earlier questions.

I am pleased to hear that you have made your way to Israel, and I am sure that in due course you will find what you are looking for there.

Your various comments indicate to me that me are not able to help you.  

 I was interested in conversion program, but the ones available were reform in my nearest city and some other reform on line. For this reason I decided to come to Israel and live a full Jewish life that was unavailable to me in Australia.

Now free from any obligations I had to fulfill all my life, I want to spend remaining years studying Judaism and becoming fully observant Jew.

I am now living in Bnei Brak where I can fully observe life as  a Jew. I have Jewish friends, and though I am very limited by language, as I don’t speak Hebrew, I also attend English lectures at Chabad Institute Or Chaya in Jerusalem. I visit the local orthodox shule, but they had no religious education for beginners. I have attended Shabbat dinners at my Jewish friends’ homes. I follow the laws of kashrut and Shabbat.  

In particular it is your wish to be what you call a 'fully observant Jew', living in Bnai Brak and attending Chabad, as well as your comments about Reform in your nearest city and on line.

I am a Progressive Rabbi and you have enquired about a Progressive Introduction to Judaism course.  Progressive is an umbrella term for 'Reform, Liberal, Reconstructionist, modern' Jews, and indeed Progressive Judaism, who run the course, is part of the Union for Progressive Judaism, which in turn is our regional part of the World Union for Progressive Judaism (WUPJ).

The WUPJ is headquartered in Jerusalem (just down the hill from The King David Hotel and YMCA), and is the largest synagogal body in the world. 

We believe that Progressive Judaism offers the opportunity for a Jew to live a modern life on the modern world, with a meaningful spiritual framework, and recognising the equality of the sexes, and celebrating the fact that all humans are created in the image of God, whether Jewish or Muslim or Christian or atheist, whatever colour, whether straight, gay or transgender.  These are not beliefs you will find widely shared within other parts of Judaism!

Given that you have made the move to Israel, and apparently the decision to recover your Jewish family tradition, and appear to be on the road to become orthodox or ultra-orthodox, I would think your best path would be to enroll on a religious kibbutz which has entered the 'conversion industry'.  This will immerse you fully in the life - and you will be able to decide whether this is really how you want to spend the rest of your life. If so, you can get all the tuition and an orthodox conversion there within six months or so, I believe. they will probably also help find a husband...

You should however be aware, if you follow that path, that some years ago they created a new rule - these conversions are only valid in Israel - if you leave Israel they may not be considered valid - ie you lose your Jewish status if you move back to Australia (or anywhere else).  This happened to Paula Cohen, who moved to the UK, and this 'geographical qualification' is unprecedented within Jewish tradition.

I hope that is of use to you.  I will disguise your identity and put this correspondence up on our blog so that others may read and learn from it.  

I wish you good luck in your journey, and if I can be of further assistance, please let me know.

L'shalom

Rabbi Jonathan Keren-Black 

What if my partner's family are orthodox?

Is there really much difference between Progressive Judaism and orthodox?

Dear Rabbi,
I have been married for 10 years. My wife is Jewish but I'm not. In the time we've been together I have become very interested and enjoyed the Jewish festivals and customs and foods - except for chulent (slow-cooked meat/bean stew!). Faith means a lot to me and I do want to convert. We want to start a family in the next few years and I would like to raise my children believing in something. Even though my wife is from an orthodox background they are not practising and I don't feel like I would fit in there.  So it seems that converting within Progressive Judaism would be much more appropriate to our lives and needs.

Rabbi Jonathan responds:

That sounds a sensible response, but you'll need to understand that some in the orthodox community, though not necessarily very (or at all) observant themselves, still consider themselves (and orthodoxy) superior to progressive Jews!

We even have a name for them - 'SONO' as in Strictly Orthodox - Non-Observant! (which is of course impossible!).

Let's try an unpack this further:  Many Jews in Australia (and UK, South Africa) are members - or at least their family were members - of orthodox synagogues.  They may consider themselves 'orthodox' - but, if they don't go to shul regularly, if they drive on shabbat, if they use money on shabbat, if they eat in regular (not exclusively kosher ones) restaurants, they are not orthodox - the best that they could argue is that they are 'selectively orthodox'!  Unless they believe that God dictated Torah to Moses, and it is therefore 'true', they are not orthodox.

My experience is that most members of orthodox synagogues believe in God as an inspirational power or support or solace in their lives, and that the Torah is not to be taken literally as God's word.  They may prefer a traditional service, all in hebrew, with no organ and only men leading and singing.  But they are not regular synagogue attenders, they will happily wear shorts or bathers or bikinis, and married women do not keep their heads, arms and ankles covered. In the rest of their lives they recognise that women have abilities at least equal to men, can be university professors or judges or surgeons, and that they can listen to a female singer without lusting after her (orthodoxy considers a woman's voice is her nakedness).  They may not always gather for Friday night, with full kiddush and Birkat Hamazon (grace after meals), and probably do not usually - or ever - conclude Shabbat with Havdalah on Saturday evening.  They probably believe that ethical behaviour is more important than rituals - and are probably proud of Israel's achievements, feel a connection and pride, but also concern with some of the challenges that Israel faces, not least from the part of the ultra-orthodox community who don't even recognise the State of Israel's authority.

In other words, in most regards, these members of orthodox synagogues have much more in common with Progressive Jews than with truly observant and serious orthodox Jews!

We really have some significantly different ideas from orthodoxy as you'll see in the second half of our reader 'Judaism for the Twenty-First Century'. Key differences are that a) We REJECT the idea that God wrote Torah - instead we believe humans wrote it, trying to answer the question 'What does God want us to be and do?  (which they inevitably answered for their own time and context, over 2500 years ago).

b) We REJECT the idea that the Temple should be rebuilt.  This would mean a return to animal sacrifices (which we don't believe God wants or needs), priests (we have done without them for 2000 years, and Rabbis, chosen for their wisdom and learning, have replaced them), and centralisation in Jerusalem (Judaism is today democratic and localised - wherever there are Jews, there is a Jewish community with its own leadership, interpretations and traditions). Of course it would also not go down too well with the Muslim world since the Dome of the Rock and Al Aksa Mosque now stand on the Temple Mount!

c) we believe in EQUALITY - that all are created equal - men and women, Jews and non-Jews, heterosexual, homosexual, gender-fluid... we all reflect 'the image of God' in our diversity.

d) We accept a child as Jewish if they have a Jewish mother OR a Jewish father - and a Jewish upbringing (reflecting biblical as well as Rabbinic periods of Jewish history).  This means YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONVERT. We'd love you to, and we'll help you, but it should be for your own reasons and conviction, not for any family reasons or pressures.

e) Our services are shorter and in English and Hebrew, and hopefully more accessible and understandable, and families sit together.

It is worth bearing in mind that, though we are a dynamic and active minority in Australia (http://upj.org.au/) Progressive Judaism is the largest grouping of synagogues in the world (http://wupj.org/).

However, because orthodoxy does not accept our Rabbis as Rabbis, it therefore does not accept those who convert with us as Jewish.  This means you will not be accepted as Jewish by the orthodox authorities - and, if you were female, they therefore wouldn't accept your children either.  You will inevitably therefore become involved in a power struggle! We believe we are legitimate, and indeed that we are part of the developing, progressing understanding of Judaism, the world and God's wishes for us within it.  The orthodox Rabbinic position is that only they are authoritative, and the guardians of true Judaism.  Of course if you look back 100, 1000, 2000 or 3000 years, it is quite apparent that Judaism - and indeed every religion, is changing and developing, in response to worldwide experiences and understanding, as filtered through its own traditions and scholarship, but this is not an argument anyone is going to win any time soon (within Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any other religious tradition.  They all have their orthodox and their progressives, but uniquely, we have a powerful Progressive Jewish movement, already 200 years old!).  

Because of these differences, it is important for you to have your partner's understanding and support - and hopefully also that of her family, though this may take time.

It is also useful if your own parents understand the process, if they are around, and they are always welcome to come along and visit a service with you at any time. Discuss and explain your rationale and the process with them if possible.  Remember that it may seem as if you are rejecting the faith they brought you up in (if any - or secularism or atheism!). 

Good luck!  L'shalom

Rabbi Jonathan